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HomeJob Interview151 | Wage Negotiation – Kwame Christian, American Negotiation Institute

151 | Wage Negotiation – Kwame Christian, American Negotiation Institute

Episode 151 is reside! This week, we speak with Kwame Christian in Columbus, Ohio. Kwame is an legal professional who focuses on battle decision and contract negotiation. He’s additionally a negotiation advisor, negotiation coach, and host of the Negotiate Something podcast.

On at present’s episode, Kwame shares:

  • Why wage negotiation is necessary
  • How you can cut back your stress and nervousness whereas negotiating
  • When the wage negotiation begins
  • How you can negotiate up your wage

Pay attention and study extra! You’ll be able to play the podcast right here, or obtain it on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher.

To study extra about Kwame, discover him on Twitter and Fb.

Due to everybody for listening! And, thanks to those that despatched me questions. You’ll be able to ship your inquiries to You can even ship me questions by way of Twitter. I’m @CopelandCoach. And, on Fb, I’m Copeland Teaching.

Don’t neglect to assist me out. Subscribe on Apple Podcasts and go away me a evaluate!


Copeland Teaching Podcast | Episode 151 | Wage Negotiation – Kwame Christian, American Negotiation Institute

Airdate: November 21, 2017


ANGELA COPELAND: Welcome to the Copeland Teaching podcast. Stay on the telephone with me at present I’ve Kwame Christian in Columbus, Ohio. Kwame is an legal professional who focuses on battle decision and contract negotiation. He’s additionally a negotiation advisor, negotiation coach, and host of the negotiate something podcast. Kwame, thanks for becoming a member of me at present.

KWAME CHRISTIAN: Hey Angela, thanks for having me.

ANGELA COPELAND: Nicely I’m so excited. We met just a few months in the past at Podcast Motion, and also you train individuals do what I believe is a very powerful a part of getting a job, which is wage negotiations. I’m so excited.

KWAME CHRISTIAN: Yeah, I’m excited to speak about it. That is going to be a enjoyable one.

ANGELA COPELAND: Nicely, so the very first, most elementary factor is I’m at all times attempting to persuade those who wage negotiation is necessary, that they should do it. And inform me, why is it necessary to you? Why ought to we do it?

KWAME CHRISTIAN: It’s necessary for a lot of methods. I believe the plain one is the cash. Research have proven that in the event you don’t take the time to barter, you possibly can over the course of your lifetime miss out on over $500,000 on the low finish, and if you’re a type of greater trajectory sort of execs, properly over one million simply, when you think about the compound impact of the cash that’s misplaced and the funding alternatives that you just’ve missed, the chance value of dropping that cash. One other missed alternative that comes when individuals don’t take the time to barter is the chance to get respect. I keep in mind listening to the story of any individual who was a advisor, I consider it was at a managing consulting agency. They usually misplaced a variety of respect for the candidate as a result of she didn’t negotiate. They thought probably if it was a mistake as a result of they had been questioning if she would be capable to negotiate and advocate on behalf of the corporate if she wasn’t capable of negotiate on behalf of herself. And so on the subject of this, it’s not simply the quantity of monetary worth you could achieve from that interplay. It’s additionally the chance to show your negotiation and dispute decision expertise, as a result of as we transfer ahead on this world, these are going to be the kinds of expertise that actually set individuals aside, the power to attach and persuade.

ANGELA COPELAND: Wow, you place that actually properly, and I really like the truth that you point out the corporate anticipated her to barter they usually misplaced respect when she didn’t.


ANGELA COPELAND: So for lots of us, the rationale that we’re not negotiating, a part of it’s that we’ve by no means accomplished it earlier than, and it makes us uncomfortable, and never solely does it make us uncomfortable, it’s hectic, it causes nervousness. It simply causes us to really feel unhealthy. And I do know you’ve started working together with your purchasers on this. How do you get individuals to attempt to cut back the stress and nervousness that it causes once they’re truly having that negotiation?

KWAME CHRISTIAN: Yeah, and this query is de facto near my coronary heart, as a result of that is one thing that I struggled with. I used to be a type of man who was afraid of public talking. I used to be afraid of battle or any type of troublesome dialog. I used to shrink back from that. That is very a lot discovered, and so if I can get to the place I’m doing what I’m doing with this ability, anyone can, actually. And the most effective methods to deal with this kind of concern on the subject of the nervousness that you just really feel with most of these social interactions, and you possibly can truly extrapolate to this related fears like concern of talking, is we have to re-conceptualize the best way that we take into consideration the physiological expertise of hysteria. And so my background is psychology. That was my first educational love. And so on the subject of our appraisal of feelings, it’s actually restricted. As people, we solely have a small array of emotions that we are able to really feel. So for instance, in the event you go to a film, and it’s a scary film, your coronary heart fee will elevate, you may perspire somewhat bit, and also you may expertise a shortness of breath. If in case you have a crush on somebody and that dreamy individual occurs to stroll into the room and appears into your eyes and says, “Hey, what’s up” in that actually dreamy approach, you realize, we’ll expertise shortness of breath, somewhat little bit of perspiration, and our coronary heart fee will elevate. These are the very same issues. The one factor that differs is our appraisal, our interpretation of what we’re feeling. And so now after I go right into a battle, if I’m negotiating, or if I’m public talking, I nonetheless have these very same emotions that I did again after I was afraid. The one factor that’s modified is my appraisal of that feeling. So now after I go into these conversations and I really feel that physiological response, I interpret it as pleasure. I’m excited as a result of because of this I’m in a scenario the place I’ve a possibility to maneuver my profession ahead. This is a chance. That is an thrilling factor. One among my favourite athletes, Billie Jean King, would say, “Stress is a privilege, not one thing to shrink back from.” If you’re feeling that, which means you’re able that issues. And so I wouldn’t endorse doing one thing and saying one thing to try to cut back that, as a result of research have proven the intent to attempt to cut back these emotions typically causes the alternative impact, the place we get extra stressed by it. Stroll proper into it, embrace it, and acknowledge that this stress is a privilege, and reinterpret it as pleasure and enthusiasm as an alternative of concern.

ANGELA COPELAND: Oh, I like that. So it’s fascinating that you just point out that even you initially even averted the battle that got here with negotiation. I do know for me, I got here from a household that instructed me, don’t negotiate, they usually had been very judgmental in regards to the concept of negotiation, and so my very first job I didn’t negotiate. The place did your avoiding battle come from? Was it additionally, did you could have that because you had been a child?

KWAME CHRISTIAN: Yeah, I’m laughing now, as a result of earlier than the dialog Angela and I had been speaking about my TEDTalk that’s developing, and that is one thing that I speak about verbatim in it, as a result of I needed to do a variety of introspection to determine the place that concern got here from. So I grew up in a very small city. I used to be within the Midwest. My household is from the Caribbean, so I had a very robust Caribbean accent rising up, and I used to be one of many few minorities within the city. So I’d say that the one black individuals within the metropolis had been me, my mother, my dad, and my brother. And so we seemed totally different, we sounded totally different, we stood out. And so what I noticed is, I grew to become actually pleasant. I acknowledged I needed to make the primary transfer to make individuals really feel snug with my presence, and due to that, I grew to become actually hesitant when it got here to partaking in any type of battle and confrontation. Even when I knew I used to be in the appropriate, I wouldn’t do this as a result of I didn’t wish to jeopardize these relationships that I labored so exhausting to create. And that sort of people-pleasing mentality permeated my thoughts by means of faculty, by means of regulation college, till I got here to some extent the place I made a decision I wanted to make a change if I wished to be the skilled I knew I might be. You’ll be able to’t be a walkover lawyer. That doesn’t make any sense. That’s not very precious. So utilizing my background in psychology, I acknowledged that the most effective methods to recover from phobias is thru one thing referred to as flooding, and that’s the place you hyper-expose your self to the scary stimulus. And so what I engaged in was what I referred to as rejection remedy, as a result of what I used to be afraid of was social rejection. So I deliberately created these experiences the place I’d put myself able the place it will be seemingly for me to get rejected. It might be like me going to a espresso store, and let’s say it was my birthday, and I used to be mentoring a younger faculty scholar on the time, and they also stated, “Hey, we see it’s your birthday in your card. Completely happy birthday. Right here’s a free pastry.” And I’m like, “Oh, properly thanks. Nicely, my mentee is right here. Can he have a free pastry too?” Now we had no proper, no proper to get a pastry. I’m doing this with the hope and expectation of getting rejected. However I received it. I received it. Which is cool. However there a variety of occasions after I get engaged on this apply, and I nonetheless do it, and I get rejected. And there are two advantages. If I get rejected, that reveals me hey, you bought rejected, you didn’t die, every thing’s tremendous, and in order that makes me extra prone to get up for myself and ask for what I would like boldly when it issues, as a result of I’m acquainted with working by means of that concern. After which then again, it really works and I get what I would like. So it’s a win-win scenario. And what’s fascinating is as you begin to interact in rejection remedy, you wish to begin to ask your self, what number of of this stuff have I been needlessly holding again fro myself, just because I didn’t ask? And that’s one of the crucial stunning issues about negotiation, as a result of a negotiation is a dialog the place any individual within the dialog desires one thing. And so whenever you take that actually broad definition, you understand that we’re actually negotiating on a regular basis. And this will increase your negotiation consciousness. you understand that we’re negotiating on a regular basis. And now this will increase your negotiation consciousness. By partaking in rejection remedy, it will increase your willingness to behave and take motion in these conditions. So that you’re simply creating new alternatives to barter and get extra for your self in all aspects of your life every single day, each at residence and at work.

ANGELA COPELAND: Oh, I really like that, and I can’t wait to observe your TEDTalk about it.

KWAME CHRISTIAN: Yeah, thanks! Thanks, thanks.

ANGELA COPELAND: That’s wonderful. Nicely, so, I wish to bounce again to, keep on the subject for a second of concern. One of many greatest fears that individuals at all times specific to me is, they’re afraid that in the event that they do attempt to negotiate, in the event that they do attempt to push by means of the concern, that the corporate goes to remove the provide. And I at all times wish to ask individuals in the event that they’ve ever seen this, as a result of I’ve by no means seen this. I’ve by no means had this occur to me. I believe in all probability for me, the worst factor I’ve had is perhaps the corporate stated, properly, we’re providing you probably the most we are able to provide, we are able to’t go any greater. However I’ve by no means had an organization say, “By no means thoughts, we’re taking the provide again.” Have you ever ever seen that occur?


ANGELA COPELAND: You could have!

KWAME CHRISTIAN: Sure, and I’m glad that I’ve. Right here’s why. In order you realize, I seek the advice of with individuals who wish to get extra out of their salaries. That’s one of many issues that I provide. And so there was one individual I used to be working with, and he or she gave an inexpensive counter, and the individuals rescinded the provide. And earlier than she did this, on the time I felt actually responsible, as a result of earlier than she did this, I used to be like, “It’s so unlikely. I’ve by no means seen a rescinded provide.” After which the provide received rescinded. I used to be like, “Oh, my gosh, I did this to this younger lady. What have I accomplished?” However I stated this, I stated this on the time. That’s unreasonable. It is vitally uncommon that that occurs. The truth that they rescinded the provide is probably indicative of one thing you wish to keep away from in that office. And so I met along with her for espresso about three months in the past. That was a couple of 12 months after the provide was rescinded. And she or he stated, “Hey, Kwame, so guess what? Since they rescinded my provide, they’ve gone by means of 4 administrators at that place, they usually got here again and supplied me precisely what I used to be asking for.” And I stated, “No, as a result of there’s clearly one thing damaged in your group that you just’ve gone by means of 4 individuals in lower than a 12 months. That’s insane.” And so in the event you get any individual who rescinds your provide, that could be a good thing, since you in all probability are dodging a bullet, as a result of that’s not an excellent signal on the subject of a company. If you happen to open dialogue about your compensation they usually shut it down instantly, it’s in all probability indicative a bigger situation inside that group.

ANGELA COPELAND: I are likely to agree. I’ve at all times instructed individuals I’ve by no means seen it occur, but when it does, perhaps that’s not the appropriate firm, as a result of it’s simply so uncommon, and it’s actually unreasonable. I imply, you type of used that language whenever you began. She gave an inexpensive counter, after which to have this occur, that’s simply nuts. Wow.

KWAME CHRISTIAN: It’s, and one factor I’ll say, following up on what you stated, is typically they are saying, that is probably the most we may presumably do. That’s good. There’s a robust camp in negotiation principle that claims we have to go for no, and really it’s humorous that I say the phrase camp, as a result of the writer of the e book is Jim Camp, and the e book is known as “Go For No.” As a result of in the event you don’t catch the boundaries of the deal, then we actually don’t understand how far we’ve gone, whether or not or not we’ve been capable of maximize worth. Give it some thought extra in a philosophical approach with regard to your life. If you happen to don’t take a look at the boundaries of your life, you’ll by no means understand how excessive you may fly since you’ve by no means tried. And so on the subject of most of these negotiations, don’t be afraid to push till they are saying no, as a result of then you realize you’ve reached your boundaries. After which on the subject of wage negotiations, the large factor that we’re specializing in is the quantity, the last word quantity for the compensation, however with the negotiation, what you wish to do, particularly in wage negotiations, is as soon as we really feel as if we’ve maximized the worth of compensation with regard to the wage, that’s after we shift the negotiation to non-monetary points. As a result of we wish to get probably the most we are able to with that massive quantity, and now, I’ve completed that purpose, let me see what I can do with holidays, let me see what I can do with bonuses, sick days, and many others.

ANGELA COPELAND: Yeah, I imply, the place do you sometimes begin after wage? Do you normally go to trip?

KWAME CHRISTIAN: Nicely, it relies on the shopper. It relies on what their pursuits are. And that’s why, every time it involves negotiation, we have to take the time to organize, not simply with regard to our technique and techniques, however with an inside audit of what we actually need. Like, the podcast episode I’m posting at present talks about 5 sources of wealth, and I’m going to look unhealthy now as a result of I can solely keep in mind just a few of them, nevertheless it’s cash, it’s time, it’s relationships, and another issues, however the factor is, if we’re any individual who actually values relationships, like our relationship with our household, that’s going to be strongly correlated with time, and if we focus a lot on maximizing worth within the wage to the detriment of our time, we would find yourself with a internet detrimental on this deal, as a result of we centered a lot on what we thought we should always, what society says we should always deal with, to the detriment of what we actually do care about. So there must be an inside audit to see what’s necessary. Most individuals, subsequent comes trip or advantages. If it’s any individual with a household, it’s typically advantages. However for me, I type of take a look at it in a different way. I’d go for trip time subsequent, or perhaps flex time.

ANGELA COPELAND: Yeah, yeah. I believe for my final two full-time jobs, I negotiated for 4 weeks of trip every time, and after I speak to individuals about that, they get actually shocked, as a result of they are saying, “Nicely, I believed the corporate coverage was two weeks.” And it’s like, “Nicely it’s till you ask for greater than two weeks.”

KWAME CHRISTIAN: Precisely. Precisely.

ANGELA COPELAND: However we’re speaking lots about form of what occurs on the finish of the entire job interview course of. For my part, negotiation truly actually begins with the very first telephone name and the very first dialog, which is commonly with a human assets individual they usually name you they usually’re fairly chill they usually say, like, “Oh, I received your resume, it seems very nice. what does your calendar appear to be to fulfill with the hiring supervisor?” And also you’re having a standard dialog, and swiftly, they’ll say one thing like, “Oh by the best way, how a lot do you make?” And that’s to me the place it actually begins. And I’m curious how do you advise your purchasers to reply this query how a lot do you make?

KWAME CHRISTIAN: Proper. And earlier than I reply that, I wish to handle one thing earlier which was sensible. The negotiation begins properly earlier than the time that we expect it does. If there’s one factor I really need all people to get along with enhancing your recognition of alternatives to barter, it’s additionally acknowledging the truth that there isn’t a actual starting and finish to a negotiation. There isn’t a proverbial negotiation desk that signifies when the negotiation begins and ends. We’re consistently positioning ourselves to be in the very best persuasive place as potential, and so this dovetails precisely, like, completely into what you had been speaking about now with reference to addressing our earlier salaries. Now finest case state of affairs, they don’t ask that, however hoping that any individual doesn’t ask isn’t a method. So let’s not even speak about that. What we have to do right here is, we wish to keep away from anchoring ourselves downward, and so anchoring is a psychological precept whereby the primary quantity that’s mentioned goes to have a disproportionate quantity of persuasive worth with regard to the remainder of the dialog. And so on the subject of our earlier compensation, let’s say we’re attempting to recover from that six determine hump, and our earlier wage was 80,000, the 80,000 virtually turns into a reference level for the rest of the negotiation. So we don’t need that to be there. So we’ve two choices. Both we ensure that it isn’t used a reference level, or whether it is shared, we obliterate it and make it appear illegitimate. So how can we do this? So in the event that they ask for the wage, what I’d say is one thing to the impact of, let’s say you’re the HR person who I’m speak to you. “Angela, I believe I can undoubtedly respect why that may be necessary, however I don’t really feel snug sharing my wage with you and right here’s why. I wish to ensure that for this new alternative that I’m compensated in accordance to the metrics that may make my wage commensurate with the going fee available on the market and one thing that’s commensurate with the quantity of expertise that I’ve within the business. So I would like these to be the metrics that we use to find out my future wage.” And simply type of go away it at that. And what I’d say is, with regard to those questions which are troublesome that we all know are coming, we should always have our response down, good and crisp, two to a few sentences, and know precisely what we wish to say. I’m not any individual who sometimes advocates for pre-rehearsed traces, like zingers or one thing like that, however in these troublesome conditions, the place we all know there’s a probably critical query developing that would have a deleterious impact on the remainder of the negotiation, we have to be prepared for it. And particularly in these conditions the place we’re stressed, the stress hormone of cortisol is permeating by means of our veins, which truly inhibits readability of thought, we are able to’t simply go away that as much as probability to freestyle it. Now, oftentimes it’s unavoidable, and we don’t wish to be bizarre or impolite. We don’t need both of these issues to be true for us. So in the event that they push and say, sorry we have to have it down, then go forward and share it. But when that’s introduced up later, what I’d say is, “With out being disrespectful to my earlier employer, I do consider that I used to be under-compensated for this job due to xyz cause.” After which what I’d do is herald professional standards to justify what you consider you’re price proper now, based mostly on a market evaluation and a consideration of what you could have delivered to the desk so far as your expertise. Now, on this dialog, we’re type of coming near presents, and on the subject of providing, the rule of thumb in negotiation is, every time you could have extra info, you make the primary provide, and every time they’ve the extra info, they make the primary provide. And so on this scenario, they know the market higher than you, probably, however they undoubtedly know their funds higher than you do, so it is advisable to sit again, see what their provide is, after which they’ll counter with what you delivered to the desk together with your goal standards, your proof.

ANGELA COPELAND: I believe that’s all wonderful recommendation. You understand, I believe additionally you type of point out being prepared for his or her response, so that you may be ready. And I do know for me, like, probably the most excessive instance I had, I used to be interviewing for a job in New York, and the human assets individual was very aggressive, very direct, and I used to be attempting numerous methods to get round giving my quantity, and he or she simply stated, “Angela, in the event you don’t give me a quantity proper now, we’re going to finish this name.” And I simply actually calmly stated, “I completely perceive. Thanks on your time. It was nice to fulfill you. I hope you could have an incredible day.” And I believe that simply actually stopped this individual of their tracks, as a result of I wasn’t afraid of that, and I knew there was some cause that if I had shared my quantity, I’d have misplaced out. I used to be in such a unique place financially that I wouldn’t have been thought-about. And in that case, they occurred to make an exception. She referred to as me the following day and stated, “We’re going to maintain interviewing you.” She clearly had a little bit of a grudge about it. However I believe it’s a must to be prepared, as a result of this can be a actually uncomfortable scenario for each you and for both that both hiring supervisor or the HR individual, they usually could not deal with it super-smoothly both, and also you simply need to be prepared both to type of roll with it and consider, how do I wish to reply to that different individual’s, no matter they are saying.

KWAME CHRISTIAN: Completely, and I believe that was an excellent response, by the best way.

ANGELA COPELAND: Nicely, I imply, if I had wanted that job, or I—I actually felt like I’d don’t have any shot in that scenario, so there was a very good cause why I used to be defending the quantity in that second. So generally it does make sense to disclose the quantity and clarify it, however I used to be not lucky sufficient to be in that sort of scenario at the moment. However you simply by no means know what they might say again to you. So anyway, I like the very fact additionally you talked about form of who has probably the most info. So I assume, based mostly on type of what you stated additionally, is that if we don’t need to convey this up, we should always not convey this up, I’m assuming.

KWAME CHRISTIAN: Oh sure, I’m assuming, except they offer you a proposal that’s lower than your earlier wage or equal to. Then we are able to say, properly I’d as properly simply keep at that time. That’s after I would convey it up. And in certainly one of my latest negotiations working with an government who was switching jobs, that’s what occurred to him. They had been providing lower than what he was presently making. And it was robust as a result of he was laid off on the time, and he was attempting to get again to the business, however that served as a robust anchor, as a result of he knew what was he price available in the market. He wasn’t fired for poor habits. They only had rounds of layoffs, and he occurred to be one of many casualties. But it surely labored. We had been capable of get his wage up in all probability $20-30,000 from what they had been initially providing, which is substantial. So if it really works for you, use it.

ANGELA COPELAND: Nicely, I believe it’s actually necessary to consider that. You stated $20 or $30,000. I’ve helped purchasers to do related issues, and I believe it’s a very compelling quantity, when you consider, you realize, I’m avoiding this as a result of it’s actually hectic, this negotiation, I’m avoiding it as a result of it causes me nervousness. And I at all times say, you realize, if I instructed you for somewhat little bit of stress, like, somewhat bit, you possibly can make $20 or $30,000, would you do it? And the reply is normally sure. And I simply assume in the event you can put that into perspective, that little little bit of stress or little bit of hysteria is price it.

KWAME CHRISTIAN: Completely, and the factor is, the negotiation supplies you with the chance to have the best worth conversations that you possibly can presumably have, as a result of when else in your life will you be working at an hourly fee of tens of hundreds of {dollars} per hour? That’s an unprecedented alternative, and so interested by it that approach type of provides you somewhat bit extra of an impetus to have these conversations, as a result of the worth is price it.

ANGELA COPELAND: Yeah, that’s whenever you’ve received to do it. You’ll be able to’t go take a job and assume you’re going to get your foot within the door after which negotiate in like a 12 months, as a result of that’s not going to occur. It’s now.

KWAME CHRISTIAN: Yeah, since you’re setting a precedent. If you happen to’re setting a precedent of not negotiating, they’re going to be much less prone to negotiate with you down the highway.

ANGELA COPELAND: And when individuals wish to negotiate extra money for a similar job, it’s like, properly, I already pay you let’s say $80,000 a 12 months to do that job. Why would I now a 12 months later pay you $100,000 a 12 months to do the identical job? That’s not the time to ask. You’ve already proven that you just’ll take that a lot. Nicely, so there’s one other factor I wished to type of contact on, and also you speak about this in your podcast, and I do say with reference to this query, how a lot do you make, on the excellent news entrance, I preserve seeing that extra states and extra cities are outlawing this query, or are outlawing that you just ask about wage historical past. So I’d undoubtedly try what’s the regulation in your native space, however one of many causes that they’re outlawing is it that they really feel that it type of creates discrimination basically that’s making it so individuals who have been paid unfairly prior to now will likely be paid unfairly sooner or later. And also you even have a podcast episode the place you speak about negotiating away the wage hole. You understand, what recommendation do you could have for us if we really feel like that is taking place to us, and the way can we basically negotiate it away?

KWAME CHRISTIAN: Yeah. It is vitally robust, and that is the factor, and such as you had been saying, the earlier wage query has a disproportionately detrimental influence on ladies and minorities, simply due to the biases which are within the office. So it’s troublesome, and particularly on the subject of negotiating whereas a lady, I’ve not accomplished this, however I’ve learn many an article, and that is certainly one of my passions, to try to share this explicit message, as a result of it’s necessary, one of the crucial urgent points in negotiation that we face in our society at present, I believe. And so on the subject of most of these conditions, it is advisable to have a very robust sense of your worth. You want to deal with what it’s you’re price to the group and what it’s that your stage of expertise and your private attributes can convey to the desk. And so a variety of occasions, on the subject of males in negotiations, competence is assumed, management skill, that’s assumed, and so it’s not as troublesome for us to make that case, whereas if you find yourself a feminine attempting to make those self same kinds of arguments, you’re going to have to be able to substantiate these kinds of claims. That’s one factor. One other factor, one other situation that ladies face, or ladies and minorities, I’ll say it this fashion, is the assorted kinds of stereotypes that you just’ll face. Now for the sake of simplicity we’re going to deal with two kinds of stereotypes right here. You could have descriptive stereotypes and prescriptive stereotypes. So a descriptive stereotype describes what any individual in your place or in your group ought to do. It describes what you’re like. So for example, a descriptive stereotype of a black male is any individual who’s aggressive and probably not as educated. So on account of me figuring out what the descriptive stereotype is for me, I at all times lead with, every time I’m introducing myself or sending emails or one thing like that, I’m a stickler on the subject of including all the letters that I’ve earned on the finish of my identify. So it’s at all times Kwame Christian, ESQ, MA. So it’s like, oh, he’s a lawyer and he has a masters. That’s spectacular. So it’s psychologically overcoming that barrier, this man is clever. And the following step is, being that step who’s taking step one to make individuals really feel snug. So I’m very pleasant, smile lots, so I’m attempting to beat these virtually invisible negotiations earlier than the dialog even begins. Now, for ladies, it’s somewhat bit trickier, as a result of ladies cope with prescriptive stereotypes. So a prescriptive stereotype prescribes how you must act in a given scenario, which I believe could be extra detrimental on the subject of dealing with your self in negotiations. So when a male acts in an assertive approach, it’s seen as, oh, you’re being a pacesetter. That’s what you must do as a male. That’s spectacular and we respect you for that. Whereas if a lady would say or do the very same factor, it will be taken another way, as a result of it goes towards the prescriptive stereotype. And so in consequence, what the research have proven, on the subject of negotiating, by means of bias as a lady, you virtually need to lean into the prescriptive stereotype and sofa your whole arguments when it comes to collaboration. And so whenever you’re speaking about your management talents, a male may be capable to get away with saying, “I used to be capable of accomplish this,” blah blah blah blah blah, specializing in me, me, me, me, me, whereas a lady would wish to vary what she’s saying somewhat bit to say, “As our crew was capable of accomplish xyz whereas I used to be on the helm.” So it’s a small, little change in semantics that reveals somewhat bit extra collaboration. Then on the subject of asking for extra on the wage, the change that I’d make is, “I wish to ensure that I’m correctly incentivized to work as exhausting as I can for this crew, as a result of I actually respect the group. The individuals on the crew are nice, and I wish to have the chance to work with it.” And so that you’re consistently couching what you’re saying when it comes to collaboration. Is it honest? No. Is it efficient? Sure. And so on the subject of figuring out the best way you wish to deal with these negotiations, it actually has to return right down to your private philosophy. Do you wish to lean into the stereotype with a view to get extra of what you need, or do you wish to make a stand and communicate the best way that you just wish to communicate and use simply customary negotiation strategies. And that’s actually a private resolution. I can’t say you must do one factor versus the opposite. However I believe it is very important pay attention to the several types of stereotypes that have an effect on you so as so that you can create an clever technique round it.

ANGELA COPELAND: Completely. I imply, I hate that actuality, however I believe it’s necessary to pay attention to it so you may work with it. Nicely so, say that we’re prepared to truly have that negotiation, and we wish to ask for extra money. How do you initially start that dialog?

KWAME CHRISTIAN: On this hypothetical, are we saying that we’re presently working within the group, or we’ve acquired a proposal for the brand new group?

ANGELA COPELAND: New group. That’s my favourite.

KWAME CHRISTIAN: Gotcha. Okay, cool. So right here’s certainly one of my favourite strategies. I exploit it in virtually all of my negotiations. I used it this morning. I’m a mediator, too, so I do some mediation too. And so the query I like to ask is, “What flexibility do you could have with this provide?” And the factor that I actually respect about this query is that it’s open-ended, which is my favourite type of query, and the distinction between open-ended and close-ended is that close-ended may be answered in a monosyllabic response, which doesn’t offer you a lot info, however open-ended questions draw out elaboration the place you will get extra info, and data is the lifeblood of negotiation. That’s the very first thing. The second factor is it assumes flexibility. And so we’re not asking, can you change this? Are you able to give me extra? One thing like that. We’re assuming that there’s flexibility, so we would like them to go looking the archives of their thoughts to see what sort of flexibility they’ve there. So these are the 2 strongest components of that query. And the following one, strategically, is that it will get them to barter towards themselves. As a result of keep in mind, since they’ve extra info, we sat again and waited for them to provide you with a proposal. They’ve made a proposal, they usually may say, “Hey, we’re supplying you with $120,000 per 12 months, when are you able to begin?” And also you say, “What flexibility do you could have?” Now like I stated, they’re negotiating towards themselves, so it provides them a possibility to make a mistake of doing all your job for you. And also you need them to try this earlier than you even provide you with your personal counter. So that’s the the good thing about that query. So on the subject of wage negotiation, in the event you get a proposal, I believe one of the simplest ways to open up that dialog is by merely inviting them to barter towards themselves by answering the query, “What flexibility do you could have?”

ANGELA COPELAND: Oh, I really like that. After which say we get to the purpose the place we’ve agreed upon a proposal with the corporate. We’re on the identical web page. I do know that you just suggest getting the provide in writing. Are you able to share with us why it’s so necessary to get the provide in writing?

KWAME CHRISTIAN: Yeah. As attorneys, we like to create paper trails, particularly once they’re optimistic. So in the event you get the deal that you really want, you need that to be written down as quickly as potential for 2 causes: deception and forgetfulness. Typically in the event you get a very whole lot, they may wish to change it by type of pretending that they’ve made an harmless mistake, and that’s uncommon. I don’t see that sort of malice taking place typically, however I do know it may occur, so that you wish to just be sure you have it in writing. The subsequent one is forgetfulness. That occurs. We’re people. So we’ve this dialog, after which a few days cross, they usually say, “Oh, I forgot to ship Angela that e mail. Let me ship her that supply.” And since they had been negotiating, the quantity was totally different from what they initially had, they may make an sincere mistake, and now it’s a must to have one other negotiation, or not less than a troublesome dialog in regards to the quantity that you just already agreed upon. And it’s a must to do extra work. And so what I do in these conditions, and that is one thing you could borrow in any sort of scenario, in a normal enterprise context, I do that with my partner, by way of textual content not by way of e mail, however what I do is after I get a deal that I like, just like the outlines of a deal that I like, I ship the individual an e mail and I say, “Hey, Angela, it was nice chatting with you at present. I’m actually wanting ahead to working with you at the remainder of the crew. Simply wished to ensure that we’re on the identical web page with reference to this settlement. If I received something flawed, let me know, and we are able to work that out, nevertheless it’s my perceive that this wage could be $150,000 a 12 months, 4 weeks of trip, and x quantity going to my 401k. Is that appropriate?” So that you give them a possibility to appropriate you in the event you’re flawed wherever. And now, if that very same misunderstanding occurs down the highway, what finally ends up taking place is you may say, “Oh, I’m sorry, based mostly on the e-mail I despatched you on October 16, this was my understanding. Is that flawed? Since you didn’t appropriate me after I despatched you that e mail.” In order that’s the way you wish to not less than begin to etch that, as a result of they’re at all times going to be accountable for drafting the contract. That may be actually unusual in the event you had your lawyer draft up your personal employment contract. That may be bizarre. However not less than you’d have the parameters outlined so that you lock that in so there wouldn’t be any confusion.

ANGELA COPELAND: That makes complete sense. Say that there’s a cause that we wish to stroll away, and we’ve negotiated what we wished, after which perhaps we received a counteroffer from another person, like a aggressive provide, and we’ve determined, you realize what, I wish to stroll away from this firm. How can we flip down the primary firm with out offending them? How can we go away that relationship open?

KWAME CHRISTIAN: So the very first thing is I wish to try to change individuals’s mindset with reference to this, as a result of our purpose is to not offend them, however we have to management that which we are able to management, and we are able to management our habits and treating individuals with respect. So with this interplay, our purpose is to comport ourselves in the very best method. That’s it. That’s it. And it’s necessary, as a result of we can’t take duty for the response of others, and if we do this, we’re going to place undue stress on us, as a result of now we’re attempting to regulate issues that we are able to’t management. In order that’s the very first thing. So in the event you deal with this completely, they usually freak out, it’s like, “Whoa, that’s your downside. I did my a part of the deal.” So I wish to introduce the viewers to a way that may be utilized in all conditions. And fast pause. This is without doubt one of the issues I actually love about negotiation and battle decision, as a result of we are able to basically use this wage negotiation as a vignette for the appliance of normal negotiation ideas, as a result of each approach that I’ve demonstrated on this name is one thing that might be utilized in all types of negotiations. So that’s the reason that is so cool. Now again to it, the approach that I’m going to share is known as the “no sandwich.” So what we do is we’ve a no sandwiched between two sure’s. And so what we wish to do is we wish to discover the foundation of our sure. We will solely do one factor properly at a time usually, and so it’s not that we don’t wish to do that, or this factor is unhealthy, particularly this provide, it’s that we discovered one thing higher. That’s what we’re saying sure to. So the strongest no’s are resting on the inspiration of the strongest sure’s. So for example, you’d say, “Angela, I actually respect the chance to interview and your provide. It’s very beneficiant, and at this level in my profession, I have to do what’s finest for me and my household to place my profession ahead. Contemplating that I’ve lately acquired a proposal from a company that’s higher suited to my wants right now, and in consequence, sadly, I’m going to need to stroll away out of your provide. Nonetheless, I nonetheless wish to have a possibility to take care of an excellent, optimistic, amicable relationship with you, as a result of I’d like to have not less than the chance to proceed dialogue with you down the highway and perhaps we’ve a possibility to work collectively later.” So the primary sure is to the brand new alternatives, the factor that’s driving your no. After which the second, the no, could be very brief and succinct. You wish to have an unassailable no. If you happen to make it too lengthy, in the event you open it as much as too many vulnerabilities, and now they attempt to poke holes by means of your no. So your no must be as brief as potential. In order you noticed in that instance, it was, “And due to that, sadly, I’ve to say no to your provide.” Growth. That’s it. And so then, you comply with it up with one other sure, which is a sure to the connection, since you wish to make it clear to the opposite facet that you’re saying no to their substantive request, to not them as an individual. So that you’re saying no to the request, however sure to the connection.

ANGELA COPELAND: I prefer it. Nicely Kwame, this has been wonderful. If we’re listening at present, the place can we go to study extra about you and extra about your work.

KWAME CHRISTIAN: Yeah, so very first thing, I’ve a freebie for the viewers. It’s a 19-page negotiation information that may provide help to be extra assured in your most troublesome conversations, and it has a wage negotiation information that you should utilize to stroll by means of step-by-step what it is advisable to do to organize on your subsequent wage negotiation, and it additionally talks about how one can deal with conflicts and put together for normal negotiations and every thing. So if you’d like that, you may go to That’s g-u-i-d-e. And I’ll ship you the hyperlink so you may put it within the present notes. And the opposite locations is, the podcast is known as Negotiate Something. Yow will discover it on any podcast app you could have there. And take a look at the TEDTalk when it comes out. I’m presenting it on October 20, 2017, so it needs to be out, properly, I don’t wish to make any predictions. Will probably be out in some unspecified time in the future sooner or later.

ANGELA COPELAND: It’ll be out quickly! We’re so excited to see it. Nicely Kwame, thanks for becoming a member of me. This has been nice.

KWAME CHRISTIAN: Thanks. You understand, this was a variety of enjoyable.

ANGELA COPELAND: And thanks everybody for listening. Due to these of you who despatched me questions. You’ll be able to ship me your inquiries to You can even ship me questions by way of Twitter. I’m @CopelandCoach, and on Fb, I’m “Copeland Teaching.” Don’t neglect to assist me out. Subscribe on Apple Podcasts and go away me a evaluate.

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