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HomeJob Interview148 | Boomer Profession Reinvention - John Tarnoff, Reinvention Group

148 | Boomer Profession Reinvention – John Tarnoff, Reinvention Group

Episode 148 is reside! This week, we discuss to John Tarnoff in Los Angeles, CA.

John is a reinvention profession coach who works with child boomer and late profession professionals seeking to defy ageism, ignore retirement, and pivot to a brand new job or new enterprise as a second-act or encore profession. He’s the writer of “Boomer Reinvention: Create Your Dream Profession Over 50.” John additionally gave a TEDx Speak titled, “The Children Are Nonetheless Alright.”

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Copeland Teaching Podcast | Episode 148 | Boomer Profession Reinvention – John Tarnoff, Reinvention Group


Welcome to the Copeland Teaching podcast. I’m your host, Angela Copeland. On the cellphone with me, I’ve John Tarnoff in Los Angeles, CA. John is a reinvention profession coach who works with child boomer and late profession professionals seeking to defy ageism, ignore retirement, and pivot to a brand new job or new enterprise as a second act or encore profession. He’s the provide of “Boomer Reinvention: Create Your Dream Job Over 50.” He additionally gave a TEDx discuss referred to as, “The Children are Nonetheless Alright.” John, thanks for becoming a member of me right now.

Effectively I’m so excited. I discussed earlier than we obtained began, I believe this matter goes to be extremely related to our listeners, and so I’m simply super-excited about it. Effectively, so out of your perspective, what has occurred that’s really impacting child boomers in a destructive approach when it comes to their jobs?

JOHN TARNOFF: Effectively there are three components that I form of grudgingly wish to name this the boomer trifecta, and actually, this simply not applies to boomers, as a result of GenXers, the oldest GenXers at the moment are over 50. So this actually applies to anybody right now who’s transferring into their late profession. And the three issues are this. One is longevity. You realize, we’re all dwelling and going to be dwelling even longer, actually, than our dad and mom did, and the advances are so fast. I imply, based on the Census Bureau, in case you hit 65 right now, you will have a 25 p.c likelihood of dwelling previous 90, and the longer you reside, the longer you’re going to reside. In order that’s one issue. So we’ve obtained much more time on our arms. The second issue is low financial savings. I don’t suppose the boomers are the one era strolling round now that has under-saved for retirement, notably contemplating the primary issue. We’ve obtained to make that financial savings final a protracted longer than our dad and mom did. And we don’t have some huge cash within the financial institution, and there are only a few institutional alternatives to essentially construct wealth for the typical individual. After which the third drawback actually is job discrimination, and on the one hand, you possibly can take a look at it and say, there are inadequate jobs for older staff, however on the identical time there’s an incredible quantity of ageism, and there’s an actual disconnect between our understanding of what older staff can do and our appreciation of retaining them within the job power and what they symbolize.

ANGELA COPELAND: I believe you’re proper. I actually like the purpose that you simply made about financial savings and cash. I really noticed one thing just lately that talked about type of the transition from having a pension to having to avoid wasting by yourself, type of like in your individual 401k, and what I used to be studying talked about that Era X particularly could be very under-saved, I assume you might say, as a result of we needed to proactively do it, and a whole lot of corporations noticed that they usually’re beginning to robotically enroll millennials in financial savings plans, which is form of serving to to appropriate the difficulty, however that’s actually attention-grabbing.

JOHN TARNOFF: All of us want a whole lot of assist, and fascinated about all of the generations now which might be within the workforce, the issue that actually GenX has to a level and millennials to a staggering diploma is faculty debt. So that is one thing that the boomers didn’t have, and I’m an enormous promoter of cross-generational, multi-generational help. So I imagine that opposite to the views that a whole lot of boomers have about millennials, I believe the millennials are a sensational era and have loads on their plate to deal with that makes their lives fairly a bit tougher professionally than what we had after we had been developing.

ANGELA COPELAND: Oh, I completely agree. I believe it’s a really complicated subject. Effectively so, as we’re going by means of this variation, it’s extremely painful, it’s troublesome. Why do you suppose that’s? Why is it so troublesome for us, and form of what can we do to manage?

JOHN TARNOFF: Proper. Effectively, I believe we’re within the midst of a social-cultural revolution when it comes to our attitudes about life and about life levels. I believe actually when my era was developing and maybe to a sure extent your era, the paradigm was, you get into training, you get a superb job and also you’re entitled to a superb profession as a result of you will have a superb training, and in case you form of fly proper and maintain your nostril clear, that entitles you to basically work for 40 years and then you definately get to retire. And as we all know, that’s gone. That entire concept is gone. So there’s a shift that I believe all of us should make in the direction of a really completely different sense of what the life levels are. And the very first thing is that training is lifelong. Proper? You may’t coast in your diploma or your diploma by means of life. You must continually be reeducating and persevering with to coach and to construct expertise and construct consciousness and keep updated. So the primary stage will not be a lot about training to me. It’s about self-awareness. You must know who you might be, what you love to do, what you wish to do, what’s going to maintain you, what’s going to essentially fulfill your sense of values and function. And I believe the millennials are literally doing a fairly good job of creating that job one. After which as a substitute of this concept of the profession, the place you’re form of punching and exhibiting as much as work day-after-day, you actually should problem your self to be producing worth. So it’s this generative interval of your life. I don’t know in case you’re acquainted with the psychologist Erik Erikson, however he talks about this era of generativity, often form of center age, the place you’re actually form of on the high of your recreation, you recognize what you’re about, you’re delivering nice worth throughout each facet of your life, and that actually is the problem for all of us, form of getting proper out of the blocks and sustaining our careers. After which the third stage will not be retirement anymore. The third stage, I imagine, is giving again. It’s about service. It’s about taking every little thing you’ve realized and also you’ve finished over your profession, your lifespan, this generativity interval, and giving it again, and spending the remainder of your life imparting the knowledge and the worth that you simply’ve realized to the following era.

ANGELA COPELAND: I really like that.

JOHN TARNOFF: In order that’s the actual shift that we’re coping with, and I believe change is at all times troublesome. We aspire to alter, however on the identical time it’s scary. So I believe maybe the concept that there’s a approach ahead and that we are able to pivot, that we are able to study, and the work that you simply’re doing, that I’m doing, with the purchasers that we work with and autos like this podcast, I believe are serving to to encourage folks and reassure people who change is feasible.

ANGELA COPELAND: I believe you’re proper. I believe it’s such an necessary message. I couldn’t agree with you extra, truthfully. I believe one factor that’s powerful at instances is for anyone who’s realizing that this variation is going on and accepting it, however sometimes you’re getting pushback out of your older family members who don’t agree with the concept possibly it is best to work a number of jobs or have a number of careers. In order that’s form of a separate subject, nevertheless it’s—

JOHN TARNOFF: I believe there’s a whole lot of concern on the market, and that’s form of a human trait as effectively, this sort of battle or flight response. And I believe you’ve simply obtained to be robust, you’ve obtained to do your analysis, you’ve obtained to current your case, and it’s important to imagine in your self on the ned of the day and have the ability to perceive and talk the concept instances have modified, and as a lot as it might be nice to return to the way in which issues had been, and I don’t wish to get right into a political dialog, however I believe we’ve to be future-focused.

ANGELA COPELAND: Proper. That’s simply the place it’s at. You realize, I watched your TEDx discuss, and it was glorious, and also you joked about making it into a life-style, like transitioning completely different jobs. I believe you’d mentioned that you simply’d had 18 jobs, and I used to be trying by means of—You’ve labored with some actually unbelievable corporations, like MGM, Orion Photos, Columbia Photos, Dreamworks Animation. And also you point out in your discuss that you simply actually struggled to see this as a constructive factor till anyone else pointed it out to you. And I’m curious form of what occurred that modified your perspective.

JOHN TARNOFF: Effectively I joke in that discuss the truth that in doing the maths on my 18 jobs in 35 years within the leisure enterprise that I used to be fired 39 p.c of the time. And I joke about that, and it at all times will get amusing, as a result of who does that? Who calculates the quantity of instances you’ve been fired in your life. It’s one thing that you concentrate on it being shameful. And my form of self-mission and a part of the bigger mission is to essentially flip that concept round, that getting fired right now will not be shameful. It’s really not essentially about your efficiency or about who you might be as an individual. It’s about match, and issues are altering so quick, in case you suppose that getting fired is a traumatic expertise, and it’s, and it’s up there with demise and divorce, however you even have to have a look at it from the company perspective. Corporations are combating for his or her lives, they’re being disrupted out of enterprise, the financial system is in turmoil in lots of, some ways, and probably the most safe model names are in peril of going out of enterprise. So in case you take a look at the Dow Corporations right now on the inventory alternate, they’re very completely different corporations from the businesses that had been there 20 years in the past. So I believe that you’ve got to have the ability to reframe these limiting beliefs about who you might be and what you are able to do and what your profession is about and be keen to have a look at the teachings and the constructive approach of decoding your historical past and your experiences. I imply, on the finish of the day, what selection do you will have in case you’re going to maintain going however to determine the way to positively assess it and study the lesson that’s going that will help you go ahead, versus persevering with to complain or bemoan your destiny? That’s not getting you wherever.

ANGELA COPELAND: Completely. Effectively you’re employed with purchasers, I do know, on this precise subject. How lengthy does it take us, often, to maneuver by means of that emotional piece? Is it a number of months? A couple of years? Like, what appears regular to you when it comes to how lengthy it takes?

JOHN TARNOFF: You realize, it actually is dependent upon the person, and I believe that, you recognize, sadly, for many individuals who’ve been in jobs for 10 or extra years have such an identification with the job that they labored in, the corporate, the mission, and notably the folks and the social features of the work, that it turns into a devastating loss, I imply very, very very similar to a demise or a divorce, the place you actually really feel alone. You are feeling rudderless. You don’t know what you’re doing or the place you’re going once you get up within the morning. So it actually does differ from shopper to shopper, and it might be a interval of three months. It might be a interval of six months, a 12 months. Some folks form of make it to a sure level the place they will operate, however they proceed to harbor resentments or a way of humiliation or disgrace that may persist for years. And one of many issues that I attempt to work on with many consumers who’re on this scenario the place they’re doing form of okay, they’re form of midway there, however there’s nonetheless stuff holding them again that they don’t actually wish to reexamine or take into consideration is to return, notably after a few years, and take a look at these obstacles which might be nonetheless standing of their approach, this sense that all of us have baggage. And notably I believe older staff, since you’ve been round a protracted time period, there may be possible going to be some expertise or set of experiences that you simply don’t wish to take into consideration however they actually should be resolved in case you’re going to maneuver ahead.

ANGELA COPELAND: I like the truth that you talked about that it’s actually our identification, in a approach, as a result of I believe a whole lot of instances after we go into work, possibly we inform ourselves, you recognize, “I’ve a household, I’ve hobbies. This isn’t my identification. This isn’t my life.” After which once you do get laid off, it’s like, “Oh my gosh, this was my identification.” And I’ve not less than noticed in lots of people all these destructive emotions that they’ve, they nearly attempt to not cope with it as a result of they don’t wish to give it some thought or they really feel like they shouldn’t really feel unhealthy. And I really feel prefer it takes even longer to recover from it in case you don’t type of get mad to start with. If you happen to’re placing it off, placing it off, it’s like, it’s simply, you’re carrying it round indirectly in case you don’t form of course of it.

JOHN TARNOFF: Effectively I believe that’s proper, and I believe there are methods which you could work to assist overcome these lingering emotions and these limiting beliefs that you’ve got about your identification. One factor which I believe is admittedly necessary: our language tends to be an actual indicator and an affirmation of what our perception system is. So that you’re at a cocktail celebration and somebody says, “What do you do?” and also you say, “I’m a.” You realize, accountant, lawyer, no matter. You’re not saying, “I work as.” You’re saying, “I’m.” So these refined language habits that we’ve reinforce this identification drawback that we face. And the minute I believe we begin to perceive how we’re the brokers of our personal imprisonment in that limiting perception, it turns into simpler to detach from it and to go, “Oh, okay, I’ve a selection right here. I’ve a selection between characterizing myself as that job and understanding that I simply labored at that job.” And these refined shifts in standpoint can symbolize huge alternatives to maneuver ahead and to alter.

ANGELA COPELAND: Gosh, that’s an extremely good level, you recognize, simply even the way you discuss it, and I believe talking of how we discuss ourselves, one of many instances that we find yourself having to speak about what occurred is after we’re in a job interview and we’re requested, you recognize, why we left our final job and we’ve to form of face it. I imply, what ideas do you will have for us on the way to discuss this subject after we’re in a job interview? What can we are saying?

JOHN TARNOFF: Effectively, the general factor it’s important to do is it’s important to be actually, actually ready for this query. You must be ready to speak about and anticipate all the uncomfortable issues that the recruiter or hiring supervisor goes to throw at you. So that you’ve obtained to look by means of that resume, you’ve obtained to have a look at all the jobs. You’ve obtained to have the ability to discuss why you left every a kind of jobs, and those that you simply left by yourself, these are going to be the straightforward ones. Those the place you had been negotiated out or laid off or fired, these are the difficult ones, and you’ve got to have the ability to be open, susceptible, self-deprecating about it, and have somewhat little bit of a humorousness, as a result of guess what? It is a drill. The one who is asking you that query could also be uncomfortable about their very own profession and in their very own profession the instances the place they had been fired. And look, they could be fired tomorrow. You simply by no means know what’s occurring. Proper? And so they by no means know what’s occurring. So to have that understanding that this isn’t somebody you’re speaking to who’s a form of invulnerable authority, however simply somebody such as you who’s in a job who’s simply making an attempt to get a way of who you might be and the way your thoughts works and the way resilient are you and the way self-aware are you, how emotionally clever are you. These are the components that can I believe enable you to go, effectively, as you possibly can see, it was not of my very own selecting to depart that job. Ha ha. However right here’s what occurred: this was a political scenario, or we had a distinction of settlement, or somebody got here in who had a unique persona from me, and we tried to work it out, however I’ve to admit, I could have made some errors. And I believe a mistake I made was to do that. Don’t belabor it, don’t form of go right into a sob story about it, however simply present that you’ve got realized from that have, and determine a solution to present how the lesson that you simply realized by means of that difficult expertise makes you a stronger candidate for the job you’re interviewing for.

ANGELA COPELAND: That’s actually good recommendation. You realize, I’ve additionally heard the recommendation of, when somebody asks what occurred, that you simply may say, “The corporate and I mutually agreed that this was not a superb match,” and also you form of keep away from the phrase, like, “fired,” or something. I form of have blended emotions about that. I’m curious: what do you concentrate on saying it was mutual?

JOHN TARNOFF: Effectively, if it was mutual, then say it was mutual. If it wasn’t mutual, they’re going to know you’re mendacity. They’re going to inform, proper, as a result of that’s their job. Their job is to know once you’re telling the reality or once you’re not, as a result of they do that for a dwelling. Day-after-day they’re assembly dozens of individuals. So if there’s something that doesn’t sit proper that you simply don’t really feel utterly, 100,000% robust about in that interview, they’re going to choose up on it, they usually’re going to return they usually’re going to be sitting across the convention desk reviewing the candidates, and it’s going to come back to you, they usually’re going to say, “You realize, they had been high quality. I don’t know, there was simply one thing about them that didn’t really feel fairly proper. I didn’t really feel like I used to be getting the complete story.”

ANGELA COPELAND: Proper. I completely agree. I believe a whole lot of selections in an interview are made based mostly on issues which might be somewhat bit much less tangible, like how somebody feels about you, or that form of factor.

JOHN TARNOFF: Completely. It’s all about intestine. It’s all about intestine. As a result of on the finish of the day, you’re stepping into there, expertise are nice, however I believe as we become old, expertise are much less necessary, the laborious expertise are much less necessary than the mushy expertise, as a result of the mushy expertise, and that goes to management as effectively, are what makes us wish to go into work with somebody within the day. Proper? And we’re working in a lot extra of a team-oriented setting, the place groups have a lot extra autonomy and independence to work collectively, the place they’re collectively accountable for the result of the tasks that they’re engaged on, that in case you’re not a superb match for that staff, you might completely the most effective ability set ever, however they’re not going to rent you as a result of they don’t wish to work with you day-after-day. They’d somewhat discover somebody who could not have the talents and possibly they will educate them the talents or they imagine you will have the wherewithal to leap in and apply your self and study the talents, however they actually wish to work with you since you’re a pacesetter, you’re self-aware, once more, emotionally clever, you recognize, you’ve obtained a humorousness about your self, you’ve obtained a capability to guide folks, to work collectively, all that stuff.

ANGELA COPELAND: I completely agree. I completely agree. Effectively let me slip in yet one more real-life instance and simply get your tackle it. I just lately met somebody who’s a C-level government, and the individual had been only a implausible worker. They really went from, let’s say, Firm A to Firm B with the identical CEO. So the CEO left Firm A, went to Firm B, employed them, introduced them alongside, they usually had been working with that individual for possibly 15, 20 years, a extremely very long time. It had been an incredible relationship. And ultimately this CEO retired, and a brand new CEO got here in, and inside every week of that CEO coming in, they cleaned home, and this individual was one of many individuals who was let go. And it wasn’t performance-based. It simply occurred. Proper? So for anyone like that, how would they clarify it in a job interview?

JOHN TARNOFF: I believe just about simply the way in which you defined it.


JOHN TARNOFF: In a humorous approach, these are simpler conversations to have, as a result of in case you had been a part of a sweep, then it’s actually clear that it wasn’t simply you, it was your complete administration staff. And even when it wasn’t. Even when it was simply you, I believe in that occasion, what you’re speaking about, and it’s attention-grabbing, I’ve a profile in my boomer reinvention ebook a few man who was in an identical form of a scenario, and he had labored for a very long time with this firm as a result of he was protected, in a approach, by the EVP who ran his division, and because the firm started to undergo adjustments and challenges, and there was a whole lot of instability, the EVP left. He stop as a result of he had had sufficient, and he went to his report, this government that I profile within the ebook, and mentioned, “Look, I’m leaving. I want I may defend you, however I don’t suppose I’ll have the ability to defend you.” And certain sufficient, inside a few 12 months, they let the opposite man go.


JOHN TARNOFF: And in these sorts of conditions the place there’s a a extremely shut relationship between a supervisor and a report, I additionally suppose that’s a fairly, it’s not a straightforward dialog, nevertheless it’s a fairly comprehensible dialog to have, to have the ability to say, “Look, I labored with this man for 20 years or 10 years,” or nevertheless lengthy it was, “and we had a extremely shut relationship, we labored very well collectively. The brand new staff got here in, had a really completely different administration method.” And discuss it within the sentence, you recognize, what they did versus what we did. “And so it was clear to me that we weren’t a superb match for each other. And I believe they in all probability felt that, from a loyalty perspective, that I might wish to attempt to proceed to implement a whole lot of the insurance policies and concepts and philosophies of the man who was fired, so it form of is sensible that they’d let me go.”

ANGELA COPELAND: I really like that. It’s so clear.

JOHN TARNOFF: Proper? And the bonus is, “And listed below are the philosophies that I actually imagine in that I really feel will be of worth to your organization.” Proper? So that you flip it round and take what was presumably perceived as a destructive or query mark or some form of crimson flag and say, “No, no, no, no, it’s really to your benefit that I’m sitting right here. It’s a superb factor they fired me as a result of now you’re going to get to choose me up and we’re going to get to do nice work collectively.”

ANGELA COPELAND: Ooh, I like that. That’s a good way to show it round. That’s a good way to show it round.

JOHN TARNOFF: So a lot of this, and also you had requested me this earlier than we obtained on the decision, about what’s step one to turning your profession round, and it’s, as we’ve talked about loads on this dialog, all about reframing, the concept you are taking a scenario that you simply suppose is a destructive scenario and you determine a solution to flip it round. And it’s not about embellishing it. It’s not about BSing. It’s actually about drilling all the way down to the essence of what that’s about, that scenario, and from your individual coronary heart and soul, developing with the energy that’s inside you to reframe it right into a constructive.

ANGELA COPELAND: Completely. I like that loads. Effectively so let’s swap gears somewhat bit. I wish to contact on one thing else that you simply talked about in each in your TEDTalk and your ebook which I actually love and actually agree with. You mentioned, your resume received’t get you employed.

JOHN TARNOFF: Proper. Proper. Effectively, welcome to the digital world. Proper? And I believe that is, you recognize, effectively, look, right here’s the deal. You want a resume. You want a superb resume. And notably I believe once you’re youthful and you might be nonetheless in a interval the place your expertise are what persons are actually in search of, it’s essential have that resume actually tight. You must have your key phrases all lined up, as a result of that resume goes to get ingested, it’s going to get scanned, and hopefully your key phrases and your format are going to get you to the following degree. However in the end, at any degree of employment as of late, 85 p.c, one thing like that, 85 p.c of jobs are stuffed by means of referrals. And I simply actually know that once I was in my leisure profession, once I was within the place to rent somebody, I might seldom count on that I used to be going to fill that job by means of HR, by means of posting the job and getting resumes. I might at all times choose up the cellphone and say, “Look, we’ve a gap. Who have you ever obtained? Who have you learnt?” And I might at all times community to the candidates that my community felt had been probably the most trusted and acceptable for that place. And I might say, you recognize, in all probability in the identical ratio, about 80 p.c of the time, I might rent from that pool. So the technique is, you wish to be in that community that’s going to refer you, in order that the cellphone name involves you versus you having to knock down the door and get by means of all of these obstacles and people nameless e mail addresses that you simply’re submitting to to seek out an individual on the finish of the cellphone who is definitely the recruiter or the hiring supervisor for that place. That’s laborious work, and that’s troublesome work, and that requires a whole lot of cold-calling fortitude to have the ability to knock down these doorways. A lot better to develop the relationships.

ANGELA COPELAND: Oh, completely. I believe the factor that doesn’t assist us on this entire scenario is that the HR staff of a whole lot of corporations give the message to job seekers which is, “Apply on-line. If you happen to’re a superb match, we’ll name you.” And one way or the other we’ve realized to form of imagine that in a approach, and you recognize, I meet job seekers usually who’ve utilized to, like, 100 jobs on-line, they usually simply can’t determine what they’re doing incorrect.

JOHN TARNOFF: They don’t get a name again. Effectively, they’re not doing something incorrect. They’re doing every little thing proper. It’s a numbers recreation. You realize. That’s the issue. The issue is, their resume is both being scanned and rejected, and it’s laborious to know what are the standards that they’re utilizing to scan and reject that resume, as a result of you possibly can’t discuss to anybody. After which if it will get by means of to the following degree, who’s trying on the resume? Is it the hiring supervisor? No. Is it the recruiter themselves? Most likely not. It’s in all probability an assistant, or, worse, an intern, who’s provided that terribly mind-numbing process of sifting by means of 150 resumes to provide you with 10 candidates. I imply, come on. It’s a thankless job to be in recruiting and HR right now, simply completely thankless. You realize? So that you’ve obtained to cowl your bases, completely, however I might not imagine in the opportunity of success from that. I might actually spend most of your time concentrating on the businesses you wish to work with, the people who you might meet at these corporations, the relationships which you could construct in your community with the people who find themselves doing what you’re doing, doing what you wish to be doing, and getting your self referred.

ANGELA COPELAND: I believe that’s nice recommendation. Effectively, so, as we’re trying and possibly we’re getting these referrals and we’re getting in for interviews, one factor, I used to be really speaking to somebody yesterday who had this subject. Early in her profession, she was very, very profitable, and now he’s several types of jobs. She’s seeking to reinvent herself. And she or he’s getting a whole lot of suggestions that she’s simply over-qualified, and he or she’s having a tough time transferring by means of the method due to that being over-qualified. What can we do if we obtain this suggestions on form of an everyday foundation that we’re over-qualified?

JOHN TARNOFF: I’m very cut up about that query, and this comes up loads, notably with older staff. You realize, on the one hand, that’s form of a dog-whistle for ageism, and they’re form of letting you down simply as a result of they don’t wish to rent an older employee, and that’s their very own bias. So shifting into the entire age bias scenario, once more it’s by means of the community. You’re going to come across that loads. I’ve a little bit of a contrarian view about age and about placing your age in your resume or your LinkedIn profile. I imagine that it is best to do it, that you shouldn’t conceal your age, that you simply want form of name out ageism, in a approach, as a result of on the finish of the day, in case you are misrepresenting your self about how outdated you might be, in case you’re taking 10 years off of your resume with a view to seem that you simply’re 40 as a substitute of fifty, what sign does that ship once they discover out who you might be and the way outdated you might be? Do you suppose that they’re going to form of ignore that as a result of now that you simply’re working there they notice how invaluable and good you might be? Perhaps, however I don’t suppose it’s a great way of beginning a relationship. The opposite aspect of that’s, do you actually wish to go work for a corporation or a staff that doesn’t worth you on your expertise, your knowledge, and what you carry to the desk as an older employee? And in order that’s one entire aspect of it. The opposite aspect of the coin in regards to the over-qualified query is you really could also be over-qualified. You realize, you might be making use of to jobs which might be extra junior than your functionality. And I see this loads. I labored with a shopper for a very long time that was form of hooked on job boards, and he was making use of to—and it is a man with 15 to twenty years of very intense technical and managerial expertise. He had an MBA and an engineering diploma, and he was making use of to form of product advertising and marketing positions that had been in search of 5 to eight years expertise. And I mentioned, “Actually? I imply, do you suppose you’re going to take pleasure in that job?” He mentioned, “Effectively, possibly I can develop with it.” I mentioned, “No, no, no.”


JOHN TARNOFF: “Nobody’s going to rent you for these jobs, as a result of they’re going to have a look at you’re background, they usually’re going to, ‘Oh my God. You realize, why would I rent this man for this job?’” So it turns into tougher as you become old as a result of these jobs are fewer and farther between, and guess what? Again to the 85 p.c query, a whole lot of instances, the roles that you will need as an older, extra skilled employee, are jobs that aren’t posted. These are jobs the place they’re sitting round within the convention room going, “You realize, wouldn’t or not it’s nice if we may discover somebody with this mixture of expertise who may assist us clear up this drawback? Like, ought to we publish it?” “Nah. We will’t publish for a job like this. Who do we all know?” So be the one who is aware of the person who these guys know, so that you simply’re one cellphone name away from an interview, and also you go in and also you say, “Oh my God, you’re the man, you’re the lady, you’re going to have the ability to assist us clear up this drawback. Oh, the place have you ever been all our lives?” So sure, you will be over-qualified, and I believe for the person who you’re speaking about, this girl, I might advise her to suppose extra entrepreneurially about, what’s it that she desires to ship? What’s the worth, the product, because it had been, that she desires to ship? And begin advertising and marketing herself from that perspective to seek out the shopper. You realize, I wish to say that in any place, and I say this to my grad college students in addition to to my boomer purchasers. Right now you don’t wish to consider your self as an worker taking instructions from a supervisor. You wish to consider your self as a guide offering worth to a shopper.

ANGELA COPELAND: I really like that.

JOHN TARNOFF: Proper? It doesn’t matter what you do, whether or not you’re a 1099 contractor or a W-2 worker, it’s the identical deal. And your resume and your LinkedIn notably ought to mirror that. So when you’ve got a interval of a niche, proper, between jobs, what do you do with that hole? Effectively, you set your self as a guide, as a result of in making an attempt to get that subsequent gig, you might be representing your self as somebody who’s delivering a specific services or products, and you might get some purchasers, you recognize, you might get some gigs alongside the way in which, after which somebody hires you in home. However it’s all about that worth and that model that you simply’re representing, and that product and repair and worth that you simply’re offering.

ANGELA COPELAND: Do you discover that lots of your child boomer purchasers are switching from full-time alternatives to extra of like a consulting contract form of alternative as they undergo this course of?

JOHN TARNOFF: Yeah, I’m. I might say it’s, you recognize, in all probability 50 to 60 p.c I might say, and I believe that, you recognize, for a few of them it’s a bridge, which is okay, and I believe that the excellent news is that the financial system is starting to understand the truth that older workers aren’t finished and don’t should be form of shunted off into this retirement backroom, wherever that’s that they don’t wish to take into consideration, that there really is worth in retaining folks on board. And there’s an increasing number of tales about this and about how companies are loosening up these guidelines and retaining folks on half time whereas they bridge to one thing else and inspiring folks to seek out new methods of offering worth.

ANGELA COPELAND: Completely, completely. Effectively so, I’m curious: in case you needed to needed to describe the one huge mistake that we’re making after we attempt to reinvent ourselves, what’s it?

JOHN TARNOFF: Effectively, I believe, you recognize, the very first thing that I say to older staff is, watch your perspective, as a result of I believe there’s a sure defensiveness that many individuals have. And I perceive it. It’s a difficult, scary scenario on the market, and a few folks will are inclined to shrink up somewhat bit and go, “Effectively, I’ve been working for 30 years, and I shouldn’t should promote myself,” or, “Why ought to I’ve to interview with a 30-year outdated recruiter?” Attitudes like this, the place they really feel like they’re form of beneath scrutiny and being form of dissected, once they really feel entitled to higher respect. And I believe that holds lots of people again, and in reality I believe we have to method this from a newbie’s thoughts and acknowledge a whole lot of the stuff we’ve been speaking about on this dialog about how work works right now and the way employment works, and likewise to reframe that sense of who we’re and what we are able to do, and open up somewhat bit, loosen up somewhat bit, actually form of attain throughout the desk to construct a relationship with somebody and discover affinity. And in order that I believe is the icebreaker that I might advocate folks begin with, is consider your perspective. Take into consideration how open and keen to be an older individual in what could also be a youthful setting, and take into consideration, the place would you wish to slot in into that house? And likewise to recollect the phrase which we had a phrase, which we had within the ’60s rising up, which was, “Don’t belief anybody over 30.” Proper? That was the ageism that my era had about older folks. And so now that we’re in that place, huge time, we don’t wish to be ageist. Proper? We don’t wish to be reverse ageist, and we wish to not be these people who we had been railing towards again then who had been form of closed off and instructed us to chop our hair and didn’t like our garments and all that stuff.

ANGELA COPELAND: When it comes to perspective, it makes me consider actually treating that hiring supervisor or that HR individual like they’re the shopper, and once more, in that entrepreneurial perspective, that you simply’re there to promote your companies, and actually treating them with respect because the buyer and as you’d wish to be once you’re the shopper.

JOHN TARNOFF: And likewise to be enthusiastic, to be captivated with what you might be there to supply, and to not have a way of attachment to the job, to the result. And I believe that is true of any degree of interviewing. And I’ll simply inform you one story that I at all times take into consideration that actually impressed me. Many, a few years in the past, I used to be at a celebration one evening. I used to be speaking to a younger girl who was an actress, and I’m unsure if I used to be making an attempt to choose her up or not, however no matter. We had this nice dialog. She was actually enthusiastic in regards to the work that she was doing, and I mentioned to her, “Look, I work with actors loads, however I’ve by no means actually gotten a superb reply to this query: how do you cope with a rejection from all of those auditions that you simply go on? Since you’re occurring two, three, 4 auditions a day, and what number of jobs do you get?” And she or he mentioned, “You realize, it’s a extremely good query. I used to really feel actually dejected on the finish of the day and I felt exhausted by the rejection, and I took it personally. After which, sooner or later, I don’t know what occurred, however I obtained this epiphany that, no matter whether or not they employed me for the function or not, I used to be serving to contribute to their last resolution, that I used to be presenting a method of going, and in the event that they rejected me, I had helped them form of test that field, and that it was going to assist make the ultimate resolution work. So I really feel, at any time when I’m going in on an audition, whatever the consequence, I’m making a contribution to that film or that TV present.”

ANGELA COPELAND: Oh, that’s attention-grabbing.

JOHN TARNOFF: And I believed, what an incredible perspective, and I might advocate to everybody to have the identical perspective going right into a job interview. You’re there to contribute what may be a chance for that place. You’re there to study in regards to the firm, in regards to the individual you’re sitting throughout from. There could also be one thing sudden that you simply study that day from that interview, so ask some good questions, share some enjoyable stuff about your self, be susceptible, be clear, be genuine, be enthusiastic, and be unattached from the result.

ANGELA COPELAND: That’s such a useful story, and I do know that these listening are undoubtedly going to have an interest to study extra about you. John, the place can they go to study extra about you and your work?

JOHN TARNOFF: Certain. So it’s very easy. My web site is, and I’m on Twitter as John Tarnoff, and Fb, “Boomer Reinvention” is the web page on Fb, and once more, the ebook is “Boomer Reinvention: Create Your Dream Profession Over 50.”

ANGELA COPELAND: Good. Effectively, I’ll share hyperlinks to every little thing within the present notes so it’s simple to get to. John, thanks a lot for becoming a member of me. This has been glorious.

JOHN TARNOFF: It’s my pleasure.

ANGELA COPELAND: And thanks everybody for listening. Thanks everybody who despatched me questions. You can even ship me questions. You may ship me your questions at You can even ship me questions by way of Twitter. I’m @CopelandCoach, and on Fb, I’m “Copeland Teaching.” Don’t overlook to assist me out. Subscribe on Apple Podcasts and go away me a assessment.

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